I've never used anything but #15 felt roofing underlayment. I've used self-adhering membrane as a valley flashing where shingles are woven and the flashing is not exposed, and have used it to fabricate window sill pans, but avoid it as much as possible.
I've also had to cut off self-adhering membrane applied by others around window openings when installing exterior trim, because the overlapped or wrinkled flashing interfered with trim placement. Simple felt gaskets under window flanges or casing is a tried-and-true method of weather sealing, and felt as a wall WRB is much easier to integrate with window flashings than plastic housewraps that have to be slit and taped over windows.
There are almost always other, more breatheable materials and techniques which work as well or better, many of which have worked for hundreds of years.
I will have to disagree with Robert on his perceived issues, as you would have to be a complete moron to screw up that installation
我讨论的问题并不是“感知”。他们是proven by laboratory and field studies and computer simulations, and they are also self-evident to those who understand hygro-thermal dynamics and envelope failure modes.
It doesn't even require a " complete moron" to "screw up" - even run of the mill morons are likely to do so. In fact, a 3' strip of self-adhering membrane at the eaves can be potentially worse than full coverage, since a roofing leak above the eave membrane can saturate roof decking underneath the membrane as absorbed water is redistributed within the sheathing, where it may become trapped long enough, with sun beating on it, to initiate and nurture mold or decay organism growth. And, in a high humidity exterior environment, the damp air in soffits can raise the equilibrium moisture content of the roof sheathing above which, covered by impermeable membrane, remains damp enough to cause problems.
And synthetic roofing underlayments, like Titanium UDL-30, are typically vapor barriers (0.0.6 perms for Titanium) and prevent drying to the exterior.
Codes have finally moved away from wall vapor barriers because they are as likely to trap moisture as to keep it out of the structure, but now builders are moving toward self-adhering membranes and vapor barrier underlayments for roofs (and even walls) which will create another set of moisture problems.
Anything made of wood has to be able to breathe. Anything that inhibits or prevents the breathing of wood materials and structures increases the probability of moisture problems and eventual failure.
Water is the most powerful and mysterious substance on earth. Nothing can stop it and any attempt to do so (such as damming up major rivers or sealing up building assemblies) inevitably leads to unintended consequences and increases the probability of disaster.
First, there is nothing mysterious about water or the consequences of not respecting it & remembering physics. 其次，木材不需要呼吸，它实际上可以在水下持续多年，没有任何不良影响 第三，让我们认真对待屋顶干燥到外部 - 这不是它的工作方式，永远不会和永远不会，因为带状疱疹和其他覆盖物将阻止它，最重要的一层是从偷偷摸摸的水中溜走的“毛毡”层上面（好吧，我将其拿回来，但我们没有处理雪松奶昔） Fourth - why the he11 are you hiring morons to even work on your house? That said, you don't have to worry about them installing I&W because they will probably cheap out & use felt anyways 第五，根据他的区域，在屋檐上需要解决冰坝的任何可能问题，也不要理会那样容易预防，因为这比安装I＆W更难做到。 第六-是的，他们被认为是您所看到的所有地方的失败，而不是当人们实际上做正确的工作并试图吓heorlly从前进的情况下发生的事情，而只是导致了不良信息的现状。正如我最喜欢的计算机俗语之一 - 垃圾IN =垃圾
With that said, Good day - I am done even trying to reason or even talk with you, because I have a sneaky feeling it doesn't do any good & hopefully Stephen finds a great roofing contractor that not only knows the codes, but knows what does & doesn't work
Generally I try to keep these away from the personal, but you seem to like taking it that way.
For the record, this knuckle dragging contractor - has over 20 years in the field mostly doing remodeling work, is a RESNET Rater, BPI certified, Infrared Thermographer, and a whole host of other items - my knowledge pretty well exceeds yours for what really works and what doesn't. Now seeing you probably still can't see past the "construction" part lets see what other building science "experts" have to say
Back to your simulation that you like to brag about "A 10-year computer simulation study, using hourly weather data for a hot climate (Miami) and a cold climate (Boston) demonstrated that a roof deck with vapor impermeable layers on both sides was highly vulnerable to moisture damage in either climate in the event of a roof leak, which has to be assumed as a high probability during the life of a structure."
Needless to say, I still disagree with the breathable part in two directions, as roofs don't dry to the outside, as Martin Holliday states "2. Regardless of your roofing underlayment choice, your insulated roof assembly will not dry to the exterior unless the roofing is vapor permeable. Many types of roofing, including EPDM and standing-seam steel roofing, are virtually impermeable to water vapor. Other types of roofing, including cedar shingles and concrete tile roofing, are fairly permeable. Asphalt shingles are a little bit permeable in windy conditions -- but not very.
气候、螺距、排放或热屋顶,创造一定的大小t, skip sheathed, or regular? Mind you it has been around 20 years since I last installed any cedar shingles or shakes and about 15 for concrete roof tiles - now it's all shingles or subbing the metal out.
Personally, I do like the new cedar rebreather products that have come out which allows a shingle to mostly dry out on all sides evenly. As an FYI, cedar shingles & shakes are one of the few products I definitely recommend gets hand nailed
Roy, if you can afford a roof that costs a $1000-2000 a square, then the last place to go is a chat forum. You find out who does it well where you live and leave the details to them.
Like #15 felt, #30 felt has variable permeance depending on its moisture content. If the felt ever gets wet, its permeance rises, so in essence it is a smart vapor retarder.
Anonymous - actually one reason people use these forums is to research first, and find out who does what, why, and is there a better method, before searching for and hopefully finding a reputable company that does things right. The great thing is, there are plenty of people willing to share that information and help others out - on the flip side, there is plenty of bad information out there also.
If you really believe that the roofing (or siding) is primarily architectural embellishment and the underlayment is the primary weather barrier, then you shouldn't be in the construction business.
And if you truly believe that "about roofs drying to the exterior - that is not the way it works, never has and never will as the shingles & other coverings will prevent it", and you ever put roofing on a closed-cell spray foam insulated roof deck, then you'd better provide some other method of drying because all roofs eventually leak.
And Martin is only half right about shingles when he says "Regardless of your roofing underlayment choice, your insulated roof assembly will not dry to the exterior unless the roofing is vapor permeable." A roofing material can be vapor permeable or the roofing assembly can be vapor open, such as any type of shingled roofing which leaves gaps between layers.
来自HUD路径最佳实践指南：
"Underlayment – Typical 15# tarred felt underlayment provides back-up protection against water intrusion only as long as the primary roofing material remains intact. It is not intended for direct exposure in the event of loss of the primary roofing system in a severe wind-driven rain event."
屋顶底层也不是其他形式的。
"If water leaks behind the secondary drainage plane, it may cause more damage than if no drainage plain were present due to slower drying."
这正是我对屋檐膜或整个屋顶膜所说的话。
What the Florida Solar Energy Center study was premised on, and what every responsible building professional should understand, is that all things fail at some point or at least have a significant probability of failure, and hence all water resistive strategies must include mechanisms for drying.
或者, as Dr. Joe of Building Science Corp. often says:“必须遵循物理定律。事情变得弄湿了 - 让它们干燥。从内部，外部和它们开始湿润。水分超过了材料的存储能力，出现问题。”
Replies
你绝对正确。
这是一个“新”奇迹产品或技术变得如此广泛使用的完美示例，而没有理解影响，我们将使翻新机和建造法医检查员很长一段时间忙碌。
尽管这种练习对通风屋的屋顶的问题较小，该通风屋顶可能会干燥到通风腔，但它仍然使木制屋顶甲板令人窒息，并依靠“完美”密封的原理，只要它保持完美，它才能起作用。如果出于任何原因失败，它将成为一个水分陷阱。
有一个无通风的屋顶，尤其是一个无法干燥的内部屋顶，例如喷雾式的大教堂天花板，它变成了一个阴险的湿气陷阱，具有很高的可能导致屋顶故障的可能性。
当木材制成的任何结构都可以呼吸到各个方向时，最耐用。木材只要干燥就可以忍受水分。
我的屋顶将是10/12的音高。建筑商正计划做一排冰和水。
该材料有用吗？第一行屋顶？闪烁的窗户？房屋飞溅区的前面？
一些代码需要在屋檐处的膜，以冰坝的预防措施在外部壁线内延伸2'。但是，有了良好的隔热良好的阁楼，带有良好的拱形通风，没有山谷或座椅来收集雪和阻塞通风，因此冰坝不应该是一个问题。
I've never used anything but #15 felt roofing underlayment. I've used self-adhering membrane as a valley flashing where shingles are woven and the flashing is not exposed, and have used it to fabricate window sill pans, but avoid it as much as possible.
I've also had to cut off self-adhering membrane applied by others around window openings when installing exterior trim, because the overlapped or wrinkled flashing interfered with trim placement. Simple felt gaskets under window flanges or casing is a tried-and-true method of weather sealing, and felt as a wall WRB is much easier to integrate with window flashings than plastic housewraps that have to be slit and taped over windows.
There are almost always other, more breatheable materials and techniques which work as well or better, many of which have worked for hundreds of years.
斯蒂芬，这完全取决于您所在地区的代码。在佛罗里达州，您必须使用类似或至少将其应用于所有接缝。在您所在的地区（我记得根据最佳实践 /代码），它至少要超过内墙或2行（以较大者为准）2' - 根据音高，我可能是错误的。我将不得不在罗伯特（Robert）就他的感知问题上不同意，因为您必须是一个完整的白痴才能搞砸这一装置 - 尤其是当您认为它围绕指甲封闭等时，等等...
这就是我唯一真正的问题是稍后尝试卸下和安装新的带状疱疹。我个人喜欢像钛UDL这样的产品，可为您提供极大的泪水，防水屏障等...有关此的更多信息http://blog.sls-construction.com/2010/building-green-homes-the-forad
我讨论的问题并不是“感知”。他们是proven by laboratory and field studies and computer simulations, and they are also self-evident to those who understand hygro-thermal dynamics and envelope failure modes.
It doesn't even require a " complete moron" to "screw up" - even run of the mill morons are likely to do so. In fact, a 3' strip of self-adhering membrane at the eaves can be potentially worse than full coverage, since a roofing leak above the eave membrane can saturate roof decking underneath the membrane as absorbed water is redistributed within the sheathing, where it may become trapped long enough, with sun beating on it, to initiate and nurture mold or decay organism growth. And, in a high humidity exterior environment, the damp air in soffits can raise the equilibrium moisture content of the roof sheathing above which, covered by impermeable membrane, remains damp enough to cause problems.
And synthetic roofing underlayments, like Titanium UDL-30, are typically vapor barriers (0.0.6 perms for Titanium) and prevent drying to the exterior.
Codes have finally moved away from wall vapor barriers because they are as likely to trap moisture as to keep it out of the structure, but now builders are moving toward self-adhering membranes and vapor barrier underlayments for roofs (and even walls) which will create another set of moisture problems.
Anything made of wood has to be able to breathe. Anything that inhibits or prevents the breathing of wood materials and structures increases the probability of moisture problems and eventual failure.
Water is the most powerful and mysterious substance on earth. Nothing can stop it and any attempt to do so (such as damming up major rivers or sealing up building assemblies) inevitably leads to unintended consequences and increases the probability of disaster.
感谢所有输入。
对不起罗伯特，但我打电话给公牛
First, there is nothing mysterious about water or the consequences of not respecting it & remembering physics.
其次，木材不需要呼吸，它实际上可以在水下持续多年，没有任何不良影响
第三，让我们认真对待屋顶干燥到外部 - 这不是它的工作方式，永远不会和永远不会，因为带状疱疹和其他覆盖物将阻止它，最重要的一层是从偷偷摸摸的水中溜走的“毛毡”层上面（好吧，我将其拿回来，但我们没有处理雪松奶昔）
Fourth - why the he11 are you hiring morons to even work on your house? That said, you don't have to worry about them installing I&W because they will probably cheap out & use felt anyways
第五，根据他的区域，在屋檐上需要解决冰坝的任何可能问题，也不要理会那样容易预防，因为这比安装I＆W更难做到。
第六-是的，他们被认为是您所看到的所有地方的失败，而不是当人们实际上做正确的工作并试图吓heorlly从前进的情况下发生的事情，而只是导致了不良信息的现状。正如我最喜欢的计算机俗语之一 - 垃圾IN =垃圾
抱歉，肖恩，但您显然对水分动态没有任何线索。并且使所有弯曲的状态都无法造成，并不会为您的职位增添任何信誉。
某种形式的带状屋顶是传统或数年的传统原因，是因为它允许重力排水和干燥。底层不是最重要的层，而是仅次于次要天气屏障，就像侧壁上的WRB一样。有些屋顶工甚至不认为有必要使用衬底（是的，他们是白痴）。
而且，是的，您对一件事是对的：木材可以在水下良好的水下生存，因为那是唯一不暴露于氧气的环境。但是，当它暴露于氧气时（然后可用于有氧霉菌和腐烂生物），它必须呼吸。
Now thats funny - I don't have a clue, nice try
我将不得不同意您在白痴方面的不使用衬底的观点，但是我们必须不同意它不是最重要的部分（对于大多数系统）。外层就像壁板一样，大部分是装饰性的，将有助于脱水。如果有任何确实通过（风，白痴，冰，设计等），那是为了帮助将其摆脱结构，而不是让它浸入并引起问题。
哦，不要捡起nit，但水确实含有氧气
肖恩，
您不是在挑剔，而是一个nitwit。水是氢和氧的化合物（不是游离氧），含有各种量的溶解氧，但是水性环境是厌氧环境，不支持有氧生物的生长。这就是为什么桩不在水下腐烂而是在水面腐烂的原因，在水面又湿润并暴露于氧气。
在建筑行业，建筑科学或建筑法规中的任何地方都没有侧壁WRB或被认为是主要天气障碍的屋顶底层。它们是次要天气障碍。
我重复一遍：你没有线索。
一个简单的事实是，许多“高科技”底层是为了建造者或屋顶承包商而不是房主的利益。它们的使用主要是因为它们具有更耐泪的性能，并且可以在更长的时间内暴露于紫外线。这允许在安装层安装和屋顶安装之间存在大量的时间延迟，这使得计划更加容易。但是，它使客户花费更多的钱而不增加任何实际价值，并且有可能产生长期耐久性问题。
A good roofer installs felt underlayment and roofing at the same time so there is no issue of long-term exposure.
我认为您需要参加阅读理解的课程并查看这本书 -http://www.amazon.com/how-win-friends-influence-people/dp/0671723650
With that said, Good day - I am done even trying to reason or even talk with you, because I have a sneaky feeling it doesn't do any good & hopefully Stephen finds a great roofing contractor that not only knows the codes, but knows what does & doesn't work
肖恩，
我不是在这里结交朋友，而是要分享可靠的建筑科学，并驳斥像您这样的承包商使人们感到困惑的所有胡说八道。
I teach building science, engineering, design and sustainable construction, as well as Hygro-Thermal Engineering.
我强烈建议您考虑参加这些主题上的一些知名课程，因为您的无知是危险的。
Generally I try to keep these away from the personal, but you seem to like taking it that way.
For the record, this knuckle dragging contractor - has over 20 years in the field mostly doing remodeling work, is a RESNET Rater, BPI certified, Infrared Thermographer, and a whole host of other items - my knowledge pretty well exceeds yours for what really works and what doesn't. Now seeing you probably still can't see past the "construction" part lets see what other building science "experts" have to say
Back to your simulation that you like to brag about "A 10-year computer simulation study, using hourly weather data for a hot climate (Miami) and a cold climate (Boston) demonstrated that a roof deck with vapor impermeable layers on both sides was highly vulnerable to moisture damage in either climate in the event of a roof leak, which has to be assumed as a high probability during the life of a structure."
第一个问题是，如果屋顶泄漏正确，如果完成正确，并且使用I＆W实际上将消除这种机会。接下来，此模拟基本上是静音的，因为原始问题涉及一个“通风”的屋顶。
接下来，还要记住您在同一篇文章中写的其他内容：“您将其倒退。一个方向和两个方向。在所有情况下，都可以选择透气的底漆。”
Needless to say, I still disagree with the breathable part in two directions, as roofs don't dry to the outside, as Martin Holliday states "2. Regardless of your roofing underlayment choice, your insulated roof assembly will not dry to the exterior unless the roofing is vapor permeable. Many types of roofing, including EPDM and standing-seam steel roofing, are virtually impermeable to water vapor. Other types of roofing, including cedar shingles and concrete tile roofing, are fairly permeable. Asphalt shingles are a little bit permeable in windy conditions -- but not very.
3.如果您设定使用可渗透的屋顶底层，那么明显的选择是沥青感觉，该幕已经成功地用于该目的数十年。”
至于＃3-马丁是对与错，因为只有＃15符合条件，而＃30则不适合PERM额定值。同样，根据坡度，＃15不仅会根据代码，而且还可以按照制造商的指示加倍时，没有资格。您是否愿意重读我上面写的内容，然后再试一次是无知的？
肖恩，您的安装雪松木瓦将是什么？
Thanks
气候、螺距、排放或热屋顶,创造一定的大小t, skip sheathed, or regular? Mind you it has been around 20 years since I last installed any cedar shingles or shakes and about 15 for concrete roof tiles - now it's all shingles or subbing the metal out.
Personally, I do like the new cedar rebreather products that have come out which allows a shingle to mostly dry out on all sides evenly. As an FYI, cedar shingles & shakes are one of the few products I definitely recommend gets hand nailed
http://www.cedarbureau.org/installation/ford_manual/pdfs/ford-manual.pdf- 您可能需要查看第15页，图23C和第7页，以获取攻击问题的不同方法。如果这是我自己的房子-5/8 Ply，I＆W或类似产品可以处理指甲等...，2英寸或较厚的泡沫（胶带接缝），请参见第7页，请参阅第7页，三重启动器，然后将带有适当尺寸的不锈钢指甲和铜w闪烁的二手山谷以及山脊的铜钉钉钉，还有山脊。是的，它的成本要高一点，但是我希望那个屋顶可以轻松地超过我，而不会让我不允许任何水进入任何水房子
Roy, if you can afford a roof that costs a $1000-2000 a square, then the last place to go is a chat forum. You find out who does it well where you live and leave the details to them.
IMO
肖恩，
＃30沥青的已发布的渗透值从0.5 pers到3.0 perms。但是，当毛毡干燥时，这些是渗透值。
Like #15 felt, #30 felt has variable permeance depending on its moisture content. If the felt ever gets wet, its permeance rises, so in essence it is a smart vapor retarder.
谢谢马丁，我的纠正措施，因为我发誓它没有达到.5 Mark＆15仅仅是原始的焦油纸？）
Anonymous - actually one reason people use these forums is to research first, and find out who does what, why, and is there a better method, before searching for and hopefully finding a reputable company that does things right. The great thing is, there are plenty of people willing to share that information and help others out - on the flip side, there is plenty of bad information out there also.
肖恩，
不管您在改建业务中的任期如何，我从未听过比“最重要的层是“毛毡”层……外层就像壁板一样，它大多是装饰性的。”
If you really believe that the roofing (or siding) is primarily architectural embellishment and the underlayment is the primary weather barrier, then you shouldn't be in the construction business.
And if you truly believe that "about roofs drying to the exterior - that is not the way it works, never has and never will as the shingles & other coverings will prevent it", and you ever put roofing on a closed-cell spray foam insulated roof deck, then you'd better provide some other method of drying because all roofs eventually leak.
And Martin is only half right about shingles when he says "Regardless of your roofing underlayment choice, your insulated roof assembly will not dry to the exterior unless the roofing is vapor permeable." A roofing material can be vapor permeable or the roofing assembly can be vapor open, such as any type of shingled roofing which leaves gaps between layers.
来自HUD路径最佳实践指南：
"Underlayment – Typical 15# tarred felt underlayment provides back-up protection against water intrusion only as long as the primary roofing material remains intact. It is not intended for direct exposure in the event of loss of the primary roofing system in a severe wind-driven rain event."
屋顶底层也不是其他形式的。
"If water leaks behind the secondary drainage plane, it may cause more damage than if no drainage plain were present due to slower drying."
这正是我对屋檐膜或整个屋顶膜所说的话。
What the Florida Solar Energy Center study was premised on, and what every responsible building professional should understand, is that all things fail at some point or at least have a significant probability of failure, and hence all water resistive strategies must include mechanisms for drying.
或者, as Dr. Joe of Building Science Corp. often says:“必须遵循物理定律。事情变得弄湿了 - 让它们干燥。从内部，外部和它们开始湿润。水分超过了材料的存储能力，出现问题。”
罗伯特（Robert），看到与愚蠢的人争吵或扭曲一些扭曲的A55版本的人争论 - 晚上好