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紧身房屋的消防安全

斯科特·威尔逊|Posted in一般的问题on

我正在观看有关消防安全的节目,他们正在谈论建筑法规的变化和建筑物信封的收紧(关于空气渗透)如何导致房屋大火的性质加剧。

https://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/episodes/into-the-fire

他们还说,由于选择了各种各样的建筑材料和家具,机会窗也逃脱了大约17分钟到约3分钟。

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答复

  1. DCContrarian||#1

    在DC中,几乎所有新建筑都需要洒水器。我已经读过 - 但是没有引用,我也不知道它是否真的是真的,但是无论如何我都会重复一遍 - 在住所中从来没有施放机能的洒水装置。

  2. 安迪||#2

    这些天的问题是塑料和泡沫中的烟雾特别有毒。吸入烟雾可以在您有机会逃脱火焰之前将您击倒。

  3. 泰勒·肯尼斯顿||#3

    Did they elaborate on why a tighter house would be worse?

  4. Expert Member
    Armando Cobo||#4

    After watching the whole video, I have a different view than the poster. The video is about a fire started in furniture, which is made with plastic products, not about forest fires.
    对狭窄的房屋的引用是关于大火在生长时,它的速度比门或窗户打开时会慢,然后氧气夸大了火,这在任何燃烧中都是正常的。火需要氧气。
    Per the UL's Firefighter Safety Research Institute (FRSI), all fire training recommendations tell you that you want to avoid opening a door or window and leaving it open, when you're in a house fire, shut it behind you to slow it down. Doors are firestops, even though it’ll eventually get burned, and lessens smoke damage.
    Firefighter break windows and cut holes on roofs to ventilate gases and improve visibility, especially if they are looking for victims.
    This is probably a good opportunity to make folks aware of home sprinklers!

    文件格式
  5. plumb_bob||#5

    I was watching a video from a research center where they had 2 identical apartments, one had "legacy" type furniture made of wood, leather, cotton, wool etc. The other had modern items made of primarily plastics, polymers etc.
    Identical fire were ignited in both, and the legacy apartment took about 25 mins to flash-over. The modern one was 3.5 minutes to flash-over.

  6. Expert Member
    Zephyr7||#6

    在商业世界中,消防安全至关重要。听到“非计算”(不可抑制)结构是很常见的。这意味着大部分用于构架的钢和混凝土,如果我们想放入任何胶合板(例如公用事业的篮板),我们必须使用经过处理的“非Comc”胶合板,该胶合板可用于防火性,并具有红色/粉红色的颜色。许多重点是“开火”防火墙的渗透,必须使用诸如矿物羊毛和Intimescent Fire额定的密封胶之类的事情来完成。在开火和非锻炼中,所有的努力都是减慢火的蔓延。

    BTW -- sprinklers are intended to slow the spread of fire and help contain it, they are NOT intended to actually extinguish a fire. The purpose of sprinklers is to buy people time to get out, and to keep things from getting out of control until the fire department can get there to put out the fire. Fire sprinklers also CANNOT all go off together the way you see in the movies. Every sprinkler head has it's own small heat-activated valve. The old style used a fusible lead link (which you could see, it looked like a vertical gray bar connecting two metal levers near the head), the new ones use a small glass vial filled with alcohol (typically red in color, and near the middle of the newer sprinkler heads). The lead fuse would melt, releasing the levers, which would let the valve plug pop out to activate the sprinkler. In the new heads, the alcohol filled glass vial ruptures and lets out the valve plug. All such systems are supposed to have flow sensors at the main water supply that will set off the fire alarm if water flow is detected, so the spinkler heads double as heat sensors for the fire alarm.

    将房屋中商业风格的东西封闭并没有什么伤害。空气密封也有助于减速火和烟雾。您可以通过到处使用5/8英寸的干墙(商业标准)来获得时间,这更具防火性(请阅读为“在墙壁上燃烧需要更长的时间”)。我在我的自己的项目,包括我的房子,因为它是一个便宜的升级,它给出了更平坦,更坚固的墙壁,它对声音变速箱更好(房间之间的房子更安静),而且更具防火性。请注意,在内墙中添加矿物羊毛也有助于减慢火的蔓延。

    Modern construction is likely to slow the spread of fire. Modern building materials aren't really any worse in terms of fire -- today's lumber, drywall, and fiberglass aren't any different than yesterday's. Mineral wool is even better than fiberglass. Cheap home furnishings can be a problem -- a sofa with foam cushions is going to be worse than a sofa with down, for example, in terms of smoke production.

    账单

  7. Expert Member
    Armando Cobo||#7

    Good info, Bill. There are municipalities in the Southwest and West where sprinklers are required on all new construction, others with homes above 3k sf, and of course, most homes over 6k-7k sf. Water shortages to fight fires is the primary reason.
    我也设计所有房屋5/8石膏板为100%t walls and ceilings, plus any house with a "bonus" or habitable room above garages, and adding all these new solar batteries, chargers and EVs, are making me specify 2 layers of Type-C drywall in the garage. It's really a safe and inexpensive upgrade.

    1. Expert Member
      Zephyr7||#10

      I'm a big advocate of fire rated rooms for batteries. In my work, I deal with large battery rooms and those have always been built with at least a 1 hour fire rating (which includes using fire rated doors!). There are hydrogen sensors, and exhaust systems. Nothing in the rooms is combustible, either. The telecom industry has over a century of experience with battery rooms.

      In the residential world, permanently installed standby battery systems are very new. You don't have the same issues with hydrogen release with the new lithium batteries, but you have a HUGE fire risk if they ever have a catastrophic fault. I recommend building a fire rated room dedicated to the batteries for this reason, and putting a heat sensor in there that triggers a fire alarm in the occupied portion of the structure. Lithium fires are very dangerous, and difficult to put out, so it's best to build structures that can contain those fires until the occupants can safely get out.

      笔记that water-based sprinkler systems can be an issue in electrical rooms. We usually use dry pipe preaction and VESDA (a fancy electric nose that sniffs for smoke, basically), but those aren't practical for residential use. What MIGHT be something to look into would be a small CO2 based clean agent system. There are also those built-in fire extinguishers that might be useful here (although I've never worked with those myself).

      账单

  8. Expert Member
    马尔科姆·泰勒(Malcolm Taylor)||#8

    我认为,在讨论中,有些事情混为一谈,也许可以更好地分开。

    - 房子本身。新建的符合代码的房屋非常安全。与较旧的建筑物不同,其中发生的大火几乎从来没有由房屋本身造成。

    - 乘员行为。如果您消除了潜在危险的乘员行为并进行例行维护,则火灾的风险几乎降低到零。那是无人看管的厨师,开阔的火焰(蜡烛和火柴),吸烟,储存挥发性化学品和便携式加热器。干衣机和烟囱需要定期清洁。

    - Furnishings. As the program said, once a fire starts, the materials in some furnishings reduce the time you have to escape and are probably best avoided.

    如果您处理上面的问题,在房屋中发火的统计可能性如此之低,我不确定洒水装置是否有意义。这是一个独立的问题,而不是从政策的角度授权。

  9. plumb_bob||#9

    最近发生了一系列致命的大火,包括纽约,芝加哥,阿灵顿等公寓大火,包括儿童在内的生命丧失。
    Much of my work consists of analyzing and enforcing fire safety in construction, from the plan review stage through to site inspections. I find the work fascinating and fulfilling. I often get pushback from owners and contractors because of increased costs and time to achieve the required fire safety, but what keeps me focused is these stories of where things went wrong and people were killed.
    消防安全的基本理论是隔室化,其中建筑物在垂直和水平的各种火灾室中分离。目的是在一个隔间里发生火灾时,一个人可以安全地从建筑物中的位置到外部出口,穿过安全的地板区域和沿途出口隔间。
    这些隔间建造separations with a fire resistance rating, measured in time (ex. 1hr, or 2hr) depending on a host of factors. As a rule, if the less aware or capable the occupants are (think sleeping, or hospitals) the higher the level of safety. Also, if there is a high combustible loading expected (think industrial, or mercantile).
    As mentioned above, the devil is in the details. Materials used in your wall and floor assemblies, fire stopping, sprinklers, alarms, exits and access to exits. Things like depressurization can be critical in highrise type buildings to limit the stack effect of smoke.
    There are case studies that show where things went very wrong, like the Station nightclub fire, or the Grenfell Tower fire. From these tragedies come the building codes of today.

  10. Jamie B||#11

    I'm late to the party here, but looks like there's been a lot of jazz hands on keyboard on this.
    I watched that video, it was 7 minutes of crude interior fire testing with scary sound effects and 37 minutes about wildfires. This video has merely a blip of info regarding interior fire dynamics and you shouldn't base anything regarding residential fire safety from it other than fire is hot and not good.

    如果您想了解火力动力学以及通风如何发挥作用,这是一门3小时的3小时课程,进行火灾动态,通风,流道和消防策略。
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82ojqcftnvg

    But none-the-less I'm going to address to OP's concern:

    那部分酋长说了关于现代房屋和空气紧密的东西,然后“打开门,撞到它照亮”(切割场景),然后说他说:“过去花了17分钟,从烟雾探测器到完全参与,现在需要4分钟”

    很遗憾地说,这是一些编辑魔术,这是两个不同场景中的两个不同的话题。

    关于紧身房屋的第一部分是考虑消防的考虑因素,因为气密性使氧气更容易受到氧气有限的火力,并且可以促进背景或闪存的条件。

    In the second part, he's talking about the heat release rate of modern furniture compared to older furniture. This has nothing to do with air tightness. A good house fire in a not-so-tight house with foam couches and full of plastics and garbage will still party like its 1999. The minor cracks in your framing aren't saving anyone by ventilating all the smoke and heat out. A room in a house is still a compartment trapping heat and smoke within it.

    实际上,如果我们想深入杂草,让我们看一下NIST的典型火灾生长曲线:
    https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/styles/2800_x_2800_limit/public/images/fire/typical-fire-behavior_1.jpg?itok=Paw0sD2r
    That part where the chief says "bang", he's referring to the point on the chart that says "Fire Dept. Vents"

    So in fact, the opposite of what the video alluded to is closer to reality. The tighter the house and the more compartmentalized the fire is, the lower the point of "fire underventilated" on the chart and where it begins the initial decay phase. This could potentially give you a greater chance of survivability becasue the lack of oxygen might choke the fire out sooner. And when a door or window is opened and left open, oxygen is introduced via ventilation, and in the words of Chief of fire innovation of Ottawa "bang, it lights up"

    现在,让我们谈谈烟。烟雾首先杀死人们,在任何热量之前。身体的燃烧是事后的想法。现代泡沫和塑料材料比几年前的房屋内容更快地以更快的速度产生毒性烟雾。燃烧的产物,例如氰化氢,苯,甲苯等(不好的东西)。这是关于聚泡沫的热分解的一些不错的读物:
    https://firesciencereviews.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40038-016-0012-3#sec9

    另外,这是UL的一个不错的视频,比较了旧家具的释放率(和时间)。(注意:这不是上面讨论的紧身房屋中的氧气有限的火):
    https://vimeo.com/463653907?embedd = true&source = video_title&owner = 43463622

    So... with all this: Are tight homes making your chances of getting out of a fire worse? No, your furniture is making it worse.

    有趣的是,随着修订的进行,构建代码越来越多地安全。然而,有些人仍在试图责备“代码”和“空气紧密”。例如,这个线程中的我们没有人提到过结构性崩溃或由于火灾引起的其他严重失败,因为它们通常不会在房屋大火的前4-17分钟甚至30分钟内发生。由于建筑法规是为此而设计的,因此在建造的房屋中不会发生结构崩溃一段时间。现在,与第3部分商业建筑相比,有关消防安全的住宅住所代码被比较,但仍然可以很好地重点放在石膏干墙,矿物质羊毛和火灾阻塞等等被动系统上。

    在Sprinkler Talk中:我知道NFPA 13区分消防控制与抑制的洒水系统,但是让我从我的实际经验中告诉您,Sprinkler Systems扑灭了大多数通用A类内容的火灾。它把水放在火上。有时候,我看到它们没有把它扔掉,那就是水的开销障碍物能够到达火焰的底部,它仍然可以控制它从传播中控制。住宅洒水系统挽救生命,因为睡觉时最脆弱的人可能会在8小时内发生很多事情(或显然是4分钟)。马尔科姆(Malcolm)谈到了所在的主题,该主题不会自发地燃烧(通常),而它的居民则是造成火灾的事情。我同意。成为人是错误的。因此,作为设计师,我们如何对此进行设计?我想说的是,住宅灭火系统(消防灭火机)非常容易实施,并且如今便宜。我只与Onor Pex倾斜,它们有一个住宅消防洒水系统,该系统与饮用水管系统联系在一起。 They actually do the design and parts list if you ask them to. Use concealed heads so your kids can't kick a soccer ball into it them and set it off and they're barely noticeable among all your downlights and (hopefully) smoke detectors. Burst washing machine hoses have a higher likelihood of causing water damage in your home than a sprinkler system does. Its not rocket surgery.

    Sorry for the rant, take it as you may,

    Jamie

  11. Expert Member
    马尔科姆·泰勒(Malcolm Taylor)||#12

    杰米,

    对不起,我不同意这是一个咆哮。过多有用的信息无法以这种方式进行表征。

  12. 删除||#13

    删除

  13. Jamie B||#14

    马尔科姆,

    谢谢你的客气话。

    虽然我确实喜欢一个好咆哮。我试图比往常更好地构建它。

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